Insulting vs Debating - There is a difference
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The way it should be done
- Inside the Mind of a Socialists
For the past 2 weeks I have been going back and forth with a Socialist from across the pond. Until now I had found all Socialist so disagreeable it was impossible to be even polite to them much less nice....
- Point Counter Point
My last Hub Inside the Mind of a Socialist was published on October 25, 2010, some 22 days ago. Since then I have been going back and forth with the Socialists who was the source of the hub. He and I have...
Hubpages - A wonderful place.......But?
I am new to the world of Hubpages, and have found a whole new world full of interesting information. I have met some wonderful people, and some not so wonderful people.
The hub writers range from polished professional writers to rank beginners like myself. Not only does this site present a huge amount of information, it allows anyone to express thoughts and opinions on almost any subject. Some writers are very knowledable and write from their heads, others are seeking information, have something to share, or are just practicing their writing skills, and write from their hearts. If every reader and writer agreed 100% on everything that is written, this would be a very boring place. Fortunately we get to read varying degrees of agreement and disagreement with most hubs that are written.
In the comments section of the hubs, I see some interesting and some rather disgusting responses. The intelligent comment writers query the hub writers on things they may not have considered when they wrote the hub, and often point to reference sources for confirmation. This is healthy and informative to those of us reading the hub comments, and to the hub writer.
Then there are those comment writers who quickly resort to name calling, insults, and outright slander. It is sometimes very clear that the content or meaning of the hub sailed over their heads and they have no other way of commenting because they did not understand. If they only knew how this makes them appear in the eyes of the wonderful people they might be ashamed. But I doubt this will ever happen. They are what they are, and will probably never change. Every group has a few members who were school yard bullies, and they will always be bullies for the remainer of their lives.
I have included links to a perfect and outstanding example of how I feel the comment section is supposed to work on this hub.site One of our writers Partisan Patriot wrote a hub called "inside the mind of a Socialist". The comments section of the hub resulted in a back and forth dialog between Partisan Patriot, and a writer named Charles James, a socialist from across the pond. In my opinion, the back and forth dialog that resulted from this hub was highly interesting, informative, educational, and a damned fine read. Here were two highly intelligent adults debating a very controversial topic with no name calling or derogatory comments. I contacted Partisan Patriot and advised him I thought this was an outstanding hub, and I would like to see it continue. In response he wrote yet another hub called "Point Counter Point" that is made up of excerpts from the original hub. His intent is to keep this hub running for as long as there is new dialog to debate.
If you have not had the pleasure of reading either of these hubs, you owe it to yourself to do so. I don't expect either one of the writers to ever be declared the winner in this debate, but don't feel either of them is looking to emerge the winner. They are both sharing their knowledge and opinions on the differences between Capitalism and Socialism, and both actually live under and experience the system they strongly support. They lead by example on the benefits of debating controversial issues and completely avoiding the flaming and name calling we often see.
Thanks for reading this and the comments and opinions are mine alone. If after reading this you feel the need to flame away, go right ahead as it doesn't bother me a bit. I just consider the source.
See the following link for an example of what this hub was all about. Part-2
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rachel - Thanks for being the first to comment. I had a feeling you might enjoy reading this one. You just need to keep on doing what your doing, and get those books to a publisher.
Old Poolman, great hub! You found a way to express something I have been wanting to say (probably a lot nicer than I would have) and in a great way. Very well said, my friend! I have been fortunate enough to experience some opposing views from very articulate writers. Of course I have had some not so intelligent seeming comments thrown my way as well. But then, it could be said that I have instigated such.
jtcarr, I don't think we instigate abusive comments by having an opinion that differs from others. When someone use's insults to comment to me that is abusive commenting.
Rachell, true so true. But I can confess to being guilty of hurling some insults. I could make some excuses by saying they were instigated, but probably not. I just find as I get older the less tolerance I have of retards. I couldn't help but laugh at the picture for this hub. TOO TRUE!!
JT - Thanks for stopping by and many thanks for the comments. I also don't particularly mind a flaming type comment, in fact, at times it can be entertaining. But I feel this is just not the correct place for that type behavior. Some of our writers, especially the newer ones, have not been on this planet long enough to develope the leather like hides you and I have. For a new writer trying their skills to be attacked by some raving lunatic is a complete turnoff. In many cases they leave the site never to be heard from again. To me this is a great loss for both the potential writer, and us the readers. Who knows what he or she may have developed into if they had been encouraged rather than flamed and called names. While you, I, and many others can deal with these idiots, others can't for various reasons.
My wish would be that these types start their own site and flame away with each other, and leave the rest of us alone.
Sorry for the long response but this one is near and dear to me.
jtcarr; it took me almost all day but I made it back over here to appologize I should have thought about what I was writing before I wrote it. The aggrevating and annoying comments I have recieved over the past week is what made me say that insults are abusive. I didn't mean to imply, infer or otherwise suggest that you were abusive in insulting others, we all get pushed to the brink sometimes and say things or write things that are insulting to others. I consider the insults that weren't instigated that are totally uncalled for to be abusive, but then who am I to judge what someone else might find called for, perhaps the rude and insulting comments I have recieved are because this particular individual felt it was the only way to get back at me for some wrong I had caused him. Anyway I do apologize for stating that, it was out of line and I hope that you don't think that I think you are abusive in your commentary.
rachel - I don't know JT real well, but can almost assure you he would not be offended by your comments. He is used to dodging bullets in Iraq, so I doubt a single comment would upset him all that much. I'm fairly sure he will tell you the same thing.
Old Poolman, I got to thinking about it throughout the day and started feeling bad. He's awesome and I feel bad if I did speak out of turn.
Rachell, please do not worry. I did not take your comment at all that way. You are a doll! Not to worry!
You don't have a clue or a brain cell left in your head you conservative, Bible thumping redneck. You're so dumb that if you DID have a brain, you'd probably just eat it.
signed TexasBeta
(Laughing) I couldn't resist the urge to be stupid Mike. This was an excellent piece. an a-hole is an a-hole and this hub won't change that, but it will strengthen and be of comfort to non a-holes. Me? I'm probably somewhere in the middle. You know I love bullies, because they are so much fun to beat up on. Sometimes I think I write stuff just to bring em out, so I can pounce on them. Mike, I hate bullies, but would be lost without those irritating little turds.
Sorry it took me so long to get over here, but company stayed late last night bud!
jim
Hey neighbor, seems like you know exactly the type I refer to in my hub. In fact, I believe you have been visited frequently by the bullies that seem to haunt hubpages. However, I also know that you can deal with these types, and give back in proportion to what you received. You just need to keep in mind that not all the writers have skin thicker than the leather on my boots, are ex bounty hunters who love a good fight, and just happen to be my neighbor. They use their bully tactics to cover up their ignorance and lack of knowledge on most subjects. They don't really bother me either, but they just don't belong here.
Thanks for the comment and I will see you later.
These keyboard bullies .. In real life, they weigh about 90 lbs., have coke bottle glasses, and don't know what sunshine is. They only leave their computer and come out of their room long enough to go to the bathroom. These third degree nerds sometimes don't even do that, as they have been known to crap themselves quite frequently due to a neighbor's dog barking or something.
jim
(Laughing) - you are a great judge of human character and that pretty well sums it up.
Old Poolman
Great hub and not just because you gave me not one but two plugs.
I appreciate all the kind things you said and you hub was right on the mark!
Partisan Patriot - Thanks for the comment, and I am enjoying your hubs beyond any I have read. Fantastic job from both you and Charles.
Old Poolman, as always, a fun read and you are dead on honest. THAT is what draws me to your hubs. Please keep it up!
:)
CMerrit - Thanks for stopping by and I appreciate your comments. Have a great Thanksgiving.
I may insult you if you insult me first, but, even then, I try to refrain from it as it makes me look small, and I can do without that.
Thanks garynew, sounds like we march to the same drummer.
Very nice hub you have there sir, I always felt that there were too much insults that are caused with nothing. There will always be people who have different opinion or people who know less about some subject. No need for insults because of that.
Alen, Thanks for the comment, and that sums up what I was trying to say. It is ok to disagree, just do it without all the insults.
Thanks again.
I salute these two fine writers for their ability to intelligently discuss their different perspectives with regard to this subject. I think any reasonable person can see the merits in that approach and I think you are correct in saying there does not have to be a declared winner for all to benefit both in writing knowledge and the awareness of the various environments in which we live. I also commend you for taking notice and holding this up as a fine example of how we can project intelligence while offering our view yet consider those of others at the same time. Once the discussion turns to name-calling and insults, we have run out of intelligence and we have also lost sight of the subject matter. No one gains in those situations and I hope that more people realize that. Thanks for sharing! WB
WB, thanks for your comments. As usual I am always happy to see you on one of my hubs.
Thanks my friend, I appreciate it.
I too read the dialog between Partisan Patriot and Charles James. And like you, I was proud of both of them. Thank you for this illuminating Hub. It is very good and spot on.
Thanks James, two gentlemen like they are makes it an educational experience for we hubbers. So much more is accomplished this way without the name calling and making it personal.
Great hub. I enjoy all I've read of your hubs so far. The dialogue and comments are always interesting.
Char M, thanks for the comments and nice meeting you.
I have been on political forums for years, but I finally got so disgusted with all the insults and personal attacks that I just stopped participating, because I found myself retaliating.
I like rough and tumble debating and attacking each other's ideas, but not each other. There is a difference.
Great Hub Old Poolman!
Will, coming from someone who writes as well as you, I consider this an extreme compliment. I too have a hard time with some of the comments, and usually don't even bother to respond to the type individual I was writing about. No problem if someone doesn't like my ideas, but a personal attack is not warranted or appreciated.
Thanks for being here.
Thanks for having me. I also see you're an Arizona neighbor. I'm in Phoenix.
I commend you, Old Poolman, for having the heart and compassion to stand up for some of those that are defeated by bullies before they even get their sea legs. I've always had a soft spot for those that champion the underdog. There will always be opposing opinions and that is healthy and food for thought, change and growth. But, name calling and debasing another for an opposing opinion, eventually, does more harm to the bully than their intended victim as it showcases their inability to maintain dignity and civility when challenged. Why do the bullies of the world feel the compulsion to insult and belittle? They feel threatened so they resort to the equivalent of a 2-year old, out of control tantrum. How does a bullies tirade look to even the most casual observer? It looks like an immature, desperate, child with poor impulse control, lashing out that "his dad can beat your dad at dominoes". In other words, stupid and childish. Thank you, Old Poolman, for doing a great service by bringing this issue to the light and backing up this well written piece with consequences for new participants, "lovers not fighters" and those that just don't have the stomach for abusive confrontation. Great read and stimulating topic. Thank you
Wow Amy, you summed it up better in your comments than I did in the whole dang hub. I have found over a span of many years that the average bully is actually quite cowardly at heart. Oh they act big and bad in writing, or over the phone, but almost always back down in a face to face meeting.
A venue like Hub Pages is a wonderful place for everyone who likes to write, and is populated with extremely good writers, down to those who are just trying writing for the first time. Experienced writers are accustomed to rejection, and know they will never please everyone no matter how well or what they write. To see a beginning writer shut down due to inappropriate comments from some idiot just makes me furious. To disagree is one thing, to turn it into a personal attack is an entirely different matter.
I find it interesting that those who monitor the hubs for content, and will remove a hub for some unexplained reason, choose to ignore and allow this type behavior. I would think they would be as attentive to this bully type behavior by a few individuals, and take appropriate action. But then, who ever said life would be fair?
Thanks for being here and I look forward to reading your next hub contribution.
You remind me of my dad, you're not old enough, but other than that, he was very quiet, humble actually, but always took a stand in defending those assaulted, literally or figuratively, by bullies. He, himself, was bullied, not in his youth, but as he grew older. It broke my heart when I would hear incidents told to me by my mother. He did not grumble about it, but bore up under it. I find it unbearable, as he always followed the principle, "There but for the grace of God, go I". He once gave a car to someone unfortunate so he did not just vocalize the words, he walked the walk.
I would not want to make the decisions as to censorship here at the hub. As a venue for writers, the criteria for censorship must be an agonizing one. Although, I feel great empathy for anyone assaulted by a bully, in some ways it is a learning experience for those like me, who cringe at a perceived slight or insult. I read with great interest your link to the "all's well that end's well" hub hosted by Jim, MWNP. He held his own and I was impressed by all of those embroiled in the heated discussion. I would have folded, but learned through the reading, that through common interest and the admirable characteristics of each participant...intelligence, the ability to forgive and forget and the amazing consequences of "sticking it out to the bitter end", they each learned something about each other. The most amazing fact I learned from the reading is that despite their animosity at the start, there was honest admiration for each other in recognizing the courage to stick it out, in taking the heat and insults each hurled, and come out finding something to like about each other. So, what started out as bullying turned out to be a lesson in the possibilities for peace and the finest tribute to the cause yet published! Win, win, win. Thank you, Old Poolman, for recognizing this and bringing it to the attention of all who spend time here. Bravo to you!
Old Poolman,
A few years ago, I walked away from discussing politics because too often it turned into mudslinging and name calling. Rather reminds me of a schoolyard with a couple of bullies going back and forth over territory.
Healthy debate is important and I believe in a country that is free, we have a responsibility to speak up when we see something is not right but like you, I believe there is a way to do it and way not to do it.
God Bless.
Bel Marshall, thanks for the comment and it is indeed a pleasure to meet you. I for one refuse to get sucked into a battle with some idiot who will not deal with facts, and is forced into name calling and questioning the marital status of my parents. To me the best solution is to just put them on ignore status and give them no reason to come back to your hub. Thanks again for your comments.
I'll have to go read the hubs you mentioned. Sounds interesting. I am fairly new to hubpages and do not get on here regularly, but I believe the most intelligent people on here are the ones that can debate in a civilized manner. I have encountered one high ranking hubber who speaks as if he is the most intelligent person around and he will not take any comments disagreeing with him. He plainly insults people for his amusement. It's unbelieveable to me and discouraged me at first on this site. Thanks for writing on this topic.
Char M, there are bullies in every crowd. The best thing to do is just ignore them and eventually they get bored and move on. Thanks for being here.
Interesting topic for a hub. I prefer to be an outside observer in reading the various opinions of some of the hubbers. But I find I learn a lot from almost every side. If not about the subject, than about human nature. Thanks for a great article.
toknowinfo - thanks for the comment. You are so right. Even in a difference of opinion situation there is lot of great information presented in this hub world. I have learned a great many things from reading comments from the so called other side. My point was that this can be done in a civil manner and name calling is not necessary.
I agree with your hub and understand that debates can be done without insulting. All it takes is one bad apple though. I think we all can learn something particularly when the comments are used to expand on the hub by adding references or little known facts.
Express10 - Again, you are so correct. I have learned a great deal by reading some of the debates here on hub pages. We all have a few beliefs that are pure fiction, but until someone shows us some facts and the truth, we just keep believing what we though was correct. I have been proven wrong more than once, but I don't resort to name calling even when proven wrong. Thoughtful comment on your part. Thanks.
Thank you for quite the fascinating read and equally fascinating links. While a fresh arrival at Hubpages, I'm no stranger to debate and this is most certainly a topic I can relate to. Flames can indeed both be positively entertaining and utterly aggravating.
In fact I was recently involved in a discussion which from my opponent's end turned into a one-sided slander-campaign. While I'm all for respecting another person's opinion and listening to what they have to say, when debating turns into outright flaming I find myself having difficulty taking their arguments seriously.
Personally, I practice a three strikes policy if you will. If a discussion partner is unable to respond in a 'civilized' manner, the debate quite simply ends there. As you've said, some people will indeed never change and engaging in a one-sided discussion is somewhat of a futile effort. If they choose to derive themselves of what could have turned out to be a learning experience, who am I to stop them?
Thank you once again for a fascinating read!
Deyrail- Thank you for the wonderful comment. I just recently wrote a hub on the US Forest Service refusing the town of Tombstone, AZ the right to repair their damaged water supply. The first person who commented went off on a tangent about Arizona abortion laws, and the fact that our Governor supposedly owns part of a private prison where we lock up illegals? I should have deleted this comment immediately, and it resulted in a flame war between the person making the comment and others.
I suspect sometimes these off the wall comments are caused by the reader learning some facts that prove his or her own thinking to be incorrect. They try to steer the comments off into a completely different direction than the subject of the hub. Many of these hubs are a wealth of information, well written by highly knowledgeable people. I have learned a great deal just by reading. I guess there will always be a few who resort to name calling and personal attacks to get even for what they just read.
I'll be sure to read it when I have the time! And thank you for the compliment.
Very interesting point. I suppose that when a person feels as if what they believe is right is 'under attack' that they must somehow defend their belief. By verbal-force if need be.
I imagine it also has a lot to do with how personal a person takes things. If it's a topic they feel very connected to for example, a lot of emotions tend to be involved. Rather than a person strategically taking down their arguments, I imagine quite a few individuals feel as if they themselves are being assaulted in some manner. If hearing information or an opinion which contradicts severely with what they believe in it's quite possible for them to feel hurt in some manner. Perhaps insulting another is a means to regain control or to somehow attempt to inflict pain on others indeed to get even.
It would also more or less explain why in some cases - if not many - the insults gradually grow worse the less they feel their goal is achieved. Some time ago I was given several classes in advanced conflict management. The professor teaching said topic basically said that 'an individual will often though not always display anger and aggression when they feel they're not getting their point across.' Having worked with the legal department which dealt with customer services, the strategies he taught me most certainly helped a lot. To prevent a conflict from even taking place, trying to find the underlying reason as to why a person behaves in an aggressive manner can at times be very useful. Who knows, perhaps the two forms of aggression are related.
Whether this is truly their thought behind their actions, I don't know, after all I'm not a mind-reader. I for one just find that it's somewhat sad that a person would derive themselves from the experience of learning new things.
What I find most interesting however is that of all the insults which have been hurled in my direction, 'you have serious issues' seems to be the one I encounter most. Quite a few of my friends have experienced the same. Because when a person disagrees with what someone perceives as the one and only truth certainly there MUST be something wrong with that other individual.
I find it fascinating that so many people put so much importance on what they believe is 'normal' and 'right' and - to me - seem to lack the basic concept that not every person in existence shares the same opinion or lifestyle. It makes me wonder if it's truly so hard to some people to try and see things from another perspective. Which just like reading a fascinating hub can be a rather valuable learning experience.
@Deyrail - Again really great information in your comment.
I suspect that at times, an intended harmless comment strikes a nerve with the reader, and he or she let their frustrations out in the comment section. For instance, someone who held out as long as they possibly could, then were forced to accept food stamps to feed their family. They might have some serious issues with anyone proposing cutting off food stamps. Of course there would be better ways to express disagreement other than a personal attack, but everyone reacts differently. The one's that really bother me are the one's who form negative opinions with no facts to back them up. Their neighbor told them the conservatives are doing everything they can to cut entitlements, so they automatically hate everyone they consider a conservative.
And some just like to spread hate and discontent in the comments section of a writers hub. It is what it is.
Indeed. I find that particular group - the ones who form negative opinions without proper cause - to be one of the worst. While I understand their initial frustration and at times even the thought process behind their accusations, should they bother with reading up on a topic and gathering information other than their own one-sided observations they'd find not everyone stamped with the same title is 'hate-worthy'.
What I find truly ridiculous though is the particular group that insults others based on their own assumptions. And indeed often without a single fact to back up said assumptions.
For example, I was recently involved in a discussion about being judgmental. One individual posted a comment about a certain feeling automatically induced by a person's appearance. A similar response found in quite a few people who feel wary of those who wear sunglasses. The lack of eye-contact to quite a few people is experienced as disturbing. Nonsensical and irrational? Perhaps, but feelings often are. It's how we act on said feelings which shows our character, or at least if you ask me.
Several individuals immediately jumped to the conclusion that said feeling must be the person's default opinion regarding anyone with a similar appearance and without even asking for the reasons behind them assumed that the person was judgmental. They even started listing of what they believed the reasoning behind the initial thought process was. What I find curious is that in the end they proved to be just as judgmental - if not more so - than the person who initially made that comment. After all 'Having or displaying an excessively critical point of view' is the general definition of being judgmental.
I find the same happens with individuals who accuse others of twisting things, those who discriminate/are racist and so on. Yet somehow they try to justify what is basically hypocrisy. Curious, but indeed, it is what it is.
Deyrail - Another factor to consider is the person making the comment is completely anonymous. A rare few would say exactly the same thing if standing face to face with the writer. Behind the keyboard with just a user name, they can pretend to be anyone they want to be. Humans are strange critters, and predicting human behavior is not always accurate.
rachellrobinson Level 4 Commenter 18 months ago
Old Poolman, I very much enjoyed this hub. I have read Parisan's Hub and it is interesting too, Charles gives great examples and shows that Socialist are not evil just different which is nice, he does so because he points out his views with out being rude and I could go on but I don't want to take away from your wonderful hub which I appreciated reading. Thank you.